For my conservative friends
Spc. Sabrina Harman poses over the dead body of Manadel al-Jamadi, an Iraqi prisoner. There is a small patch of blood on his right temple and his eyes are sealed closed with tape. According to Spc. Kenner's testimony, Navy SEALs brought al-Jamadi to the prison in good health.Now let's play "pick the definition". Would you consider the above photo the result of:
a) Hazing. Definition: To initiate, as into a college fraternity, by exacting humiliating performances from or playing rough practical jokes upon.
b) Torture, Definition: Something causing severe pain or anguish and possibly death.
I pick "b". Again it is never OK to do this, ever. If you are a Christian Conservative and you think torture is OK, ask yourself what Jesus would say. Do you think he would accept torture under any circumstances? I'm guessing probably not, especially after the Crucifixion.
One more thing, the "we aren't as bad as Saddam" argument is bullshit. Torture is torture, whatever the result. This is what Americans allowed to be photographed, I don't want to guess what we aren't seeing. What's most annoying is that so long after Abu Ghraib the US government still condones torture and goes to great length to make sure they can covertly torture suspects on foreign soil.
posted by mochi at 7:23 AM
12 Comments:
Mochi,
There is not enough information for me to go on. Do you have more detail available than you have provided?
Thanks,
-Jack
The mere fact that a US soldier is smiling as she stands over the dead body of another human is disgusting. Are they actually proud about the fact that this man is dead? It has been my experience (through many friends and family that have been in the military) that one who has to take the life of another rarely ever brags about it. It is never easy to take the life of another. It appears that the ones who brag and boast are the most cowardly of all.
Why is is that we complain about alleged police brutality in our own country (keep in mind that most who are detained by police are rarely guilty), but we don't even squirm at the sight or thought of committing autrocities overseas? Hear no evil, see no evil...
Whoops, I meant those that are detained by the police and resisting arrest are rarely innocent. :)
I think that this post originally came from torture by CIA to extract information necessary to the war on terror. This appears to be a soldier (I don't think that our military should be given blanket authority to torture) but again, there is too little information here for me to go on. I can't make assumptions and pass judgement so easily, Lost. I wasn't there, don't know what went on, have no idea the circumstances surrounding this picture.
Well I don't believe that torturing people in the name of gathering information for the "war on terror" is acceptable, period. Like I said in another post this war on terror will never end. We will never live in complete peace because we have been involved in many injustices and will continue to be held accountable for our involvement. If it makes americans feel safer or assured, in some way, that things are getting better b/c people are being tortured then I think they are disillusioned. We have made zero progress and torturing people is not helping the cause at all.
Yep, if that Iraqi is dead, then that U.S. soldier is pretty sick. Not to be too contrarian, but are we sure that Iraqi is dead? Are we sure that he was killed by the U.S. (and not his cellmates for possibly talking to the U.S.?)
Just curious for some more details.
I don't condone torture. I think torture is inherently evil. Unfortunately we will disagree as to whether it is ever an appropriate tool to gain information. In my opinion, it is virtually never an appropriate tool. But that's virtually never, not never.
And of course, there is always the definition of "torture". I think we can all agree on the extremes at either end. Simple questioning, even in a loud voice or yelling, lies, and common police interrogation techniques are not torture. Battery acid, beatings, and electrical shock are torture. There is a grey area as to whether a coercive technique is actually torture. I don't consider sleep deprivation torture, some do. I also don't consider sensory deprivation to be torture, others disagree with me on that.
Regardless, glorifying in the death of any human being is itself subhuman and if that Iraqi is dead, this soldier is a disgrace to her uniform.
The "more information", some of you are seeking.
Thanks, Mochi!
I will read this and jump back in.
-Jack
Read over the article, and note the conflicting stories. Who to believe? I certainly don't condone torture by the military, and think it should be the exception under any circumstance and not the rule.
Since there have been wars there has been torture. In a utopian society it should never exist, but in reality it will happen. I can't take an absolute position on it (NEVER or ALWAYS) because there may be circumstances that warrant it. In terms of hypothetical scenarios, if I could save the lives of innocents by torturing information out the guilty (the ticking bomb scenario) I would have to say that the guilty guy would and I would be in for a very distasteful time.
(Mochi, keep in mind that you're talking to a guy who catches moths in the house and brings them outside.)
-Jack
As long as the information they squeezed out of him saved American lives, so be it.
Kevin - I like the way you singled out "American" lives... as if those are the only lives that are important to you. Then again, by reading other comments of yours it appears to be that way.
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