A presumption of guilt
My main concern with covert CIA prisons in Europe isn't that we are contravening European law, the Geneva convention and bunch of national statutes. It's that we are presuming the people we are sending off to these prisons are guilty and for some reason should not be granted the due process we afford our own citizens.
Does the administration really think the "these prisons saved European lives" argument is going to resonate with the average European? After all they aren't so gullible over there and have even less faith in our government than we do. It will be interesting to watch the European press devour Condoleezza over the next few days. I hope they don't let her get away without revealing some details.
Does the administration really think the "these prisons saved European lives" argument is going to resonate with the average European? After all they aren't so gullible over there and have even less faith in our government than we do. It will be interesting to watch the European press devour Condoleezza over the next few days. I hope they don't let her get away without revealing some details.
posted by mochi at 8:58 PM
13 Comments:
Mochi,
I have a quick question. What other reason would our government have to torture terrorists?
-Jack
There is no reason to torture anyone, ever, period.
Why do you think foreigners taken into custody outside the U.S. deserve the protections of the U.S. Constitution? It is inapplicable to foreigners located outside the U.S.
First we really need to get something straight. What is torture? Is the humiliation we saw from AG and Gitmo torture or is it just the equivalent of hazing?
Second, there has been no proof of the United States torturing people. Just with allegations, the left has already charged, tried and convicted the United States of such based on anonymous reporting. (Would that they were as aggressive with despots like Saddam and Castro!) How is it that you doubt reports of WMD's so quickly but are quick to believe that we engage in torture? To hear the left speak we engage in wholesale torture on a daily basis just for its own sake. Before I slander or vilify my country, I usually like evidence.
Third, I posed a question for Shea in a previous post and would like to see if you would answer it straight, Mochi. (So far, no one on the left has answered this question for me in a straight-forward manner):
Your 10 year old daughter has been kidnapped by a group of men. You are sent pictures of her being repeatedly raped, tortured, and you are told that she will be killed in 24 hours. You manage through much heroics to apprehend one of the accomplices who knows where your daughter is being held within one hour left in the 24 hour deadline. Would you torture this individual in order to get the information you need?
I am not looking for careful words or parsed sentences, just the simple truth. Hypotheticals are valuable tools to evaluate true principle (they are scientific tools that are the basis of establishing fact).
You said there is never a case for torture. Do you believe that?
Regards,
-Jack
I would never trust the information I was given based on torture. So the answer is no. I would not torture this individual, if he didn't give me the information that resulted in my child's release and my child suffered further I would shoot him in the head.
One other thing, that hazing comment is just plain stupid. I'm not sure where you went to school but what I saw in those photos was not hazing. If that happened to you and you thought it was hazing I would suggest calling the police.
Well, Mochi, you are the most honest and straightforward to date. I would have to admit myself that if my torturing a killer would save an innocent or even a million innocents, I would engage in it with reluctance, but engage in it I would. There are a lot of studies though about torture and torture does yield results.
I saw most of the pictures--I don't know if we saw the same ones, but I don't consider being stripped naked and being made fun of as being torture. Of course kids are quite a bit more sheltered in Universities than when I went to school. As far as the picture I have seen, yes, I endured far more. Humiliation is not torture--well, maybe it depends on how sensitive one is.
Mochi, are you going to post an article about Saddam? I was listening to the testimony of his regime--now THAT is was torture!
(I still stick by my comments about the torture allegations being allegations, not proven. Didn't we hear about terrorists making up stories about Gitmo? The Democrat Party has demonstrated that it will do anything to undermine the war on terror, terrorists themselves are trained at propaganda, we have people making up stories everywhere. In regards to your statement: "It's that we are presuming the people we are sending off to these prisons are guilty and for some reason should not be granted the due process we afford our own citizens." I have no idea where you find proof of such CIA operations or know anything about anyone who has been sent there, Mochi. Guess I need a little more to go on to make such judgements.
-Jack
Jack, you can't really believe that "torture" in any way possible can be like hazing? First, let's remember that hazing at a college fraternity is voluntary. If you want to be a part of an organization bad enough you might be willing to endure such practices. Personally, I'd pass. Taking someone prisoner and torturing them, regardless if they are in this country or not, is wrong. Unless you can prove to me that the person detained specifically caused unforgivable harm to someone else, I don't think they deserve torture. Even then, I don't know that I'd think it appropriate.
After 9/11 my cousin said a grace before dinner one day and said, "Lord give us the perseverance and strength to catch those people and make them suffer for what they did." I almost puked. How are you going to pray to God to help you hurt someone else? Again, I think that somehow I learned about a different God in church... I don't remember anything about discrimination and hurting others. But I digress...
We, as a country, are still held accountable for our actions elsewhere. Sadly not all our troops respect the sanctity of other religions and cultures and so what might seem as hazing to you might be torture to them. WE are over THERE. This is a battle that will never, ever be won. America will never live in peace so what's the point in torturing people to try and get a little bit of information from them? Don't we realize that people being tortured will say whatever the torturers want to hear? We can't continue punishing a culture or ethnicity solely based on a few bad apples. If that were the case then everyone would hate the American settlers and every American that has intentionally caused harm or oppressed someone else... oh, but wait. Our history is full of subjugation.
Oh, and as an ex cop I can tell you that most info that is obtained through torture is not accurate. Information that is obtained under duress is likely to be incorrect and more often than not the person who kidnapped the child or whoever is probably not dealing with a full deck of cards anyway. They tend to lie and that includes killing someone after they've "promised" to let them go.
Besides, what good would it do you if you tortured the guy and did save your daughter if you ended up in jail for torturing the kidnapper? Don't assume a jury wouldn't convict you. Just food for thought...
"Why do you think foreigners taken into custody outside the U.S. deserve the protections of the U.S. Constitution? It is inapplicable to foreigners located outside the U.S."
If we are the ones who took them into custody, then it is our moral obligation to treat them according to the priciples for which we stand. Otherwise, we're no better than our enemies.
Jack: Please! If you think the only things that were done to our prisoners was being stripped and ridiculed? How about this: "According to Army and Navy investigators, 18 detainees in Afghanistan and Iraq have died since 2002 as a result of confirmed criminal homicides, and another eight have died because of suspected homicides. The first group includes Mullah Habibullah and Dilawar (Afghanis often go by one name), who were hung from their arms and beaten so badly at Bagram Air Force Base that their legs would have had to have been amputated if they had lived. An Army investigation, which the Church Report briefly mentions, recommended that charges be brought against 28 military personnel in connection with Habibullah and Dilawar's deaths. To date, only two low-level military policemen have been charged." source
How are you going to pray to God to help you hurt someone else?
Yeah, that was messed up. Perhaps you should have offered up a prayer that God assists us in being just, rather than vengeful.
Shea, we all agree that when soldiers take matters into their own hands and commit a murder they should be prosecuted. That isn't the same as the allegation of wholesale torture of all detainees. I don't think you can extrapolate individuals' actions and apply them to the entire military.
And no, there is not "moral obligation" to give foreign fighters and others captured during battlefield operations the full protections of our U.S. Constitution. That's just silly.
European leaders have given Rice a resounding vote of confidence.
European foreign ministers attempted to make peace with the United States on Thursday over the controversy concerning treatment of terrorism suspects, with many saying they were satisfied with visiting Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's explanations of U.S. policy. ...
"Secretary Rice has covered basically all of our concerns," Bot said, adding that if the secret prisons existed -- which he called "pure speculation" -- Rice "has made it quite clear" that the United States did not violate international law in such facilities.
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