Support the OYE
posted by SheaNC at 8:03 PM
Saturday, July 16, 2005
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12 Comments:
I love people who support the war and dont fight it! Makes a lot of friggin sense, doesnt it? This is a fictional exchange between a war supporter and one opposed to the war. I am willing to bet this exchange takes place millions of times a day in this country...
opposer: We should not be in Iraq
supporter: Don't you remember 9/11? Iraq has always been a breeding ground for terrorists, do you want another attack? This will have a domino effect and after we do nothing in Iraq for 10 years, the world will be safer because of this war.
opposer: Well thats absolutely false, but I respect your support for the war, I guess, if you really do believe in it.
supporter: I really do.
opposer: Well, let me ask you this: if you support this war, a war where we know we do not have enough troops to ensure victory, why dont you help your country and go fight it if you believe in it so much? I dont support this war, but you do, so why arent you over there or trying to get over there?
supporter: oh, well you know, I thought about it, but I have other things going on in my life. Im in school, I have a family, I have work, just a lot of things going on in my life and I have just been so busy. But you know, if I get drafted, I would DEFINITELY GO.
opposer: So you dont think people fighting over there right now weren't in school, didnt have their own jobs here, dont have their own families who are worried sick about them every day? No offense, but I think if you told a parent of one of our soldiers that ridiculous horseshit you just told me, you should get decked in the face. Oh, about getting drafted, why would you wait until youre told to do something to actually do it, as opposed to just getting off your ass and doing it if its what you believe in, in the first place?
supporter: Ive thought about it, its just... you know, just a lot going on for me right now.
opposer: But you totally missed the point here; based on what you are saying, then, 140,000 people in Iraq didnt have their own things going on either? No disrespect, but I am willing to bet a married father of two who is avoiding car bombs every day for our administration's bullshit war has some things he needs to worry about. Again, you are so adamantly supportive of this horrible war, why arent you fighting it? We have a local recruitment office you can go to and get yourself enlisted tomorrow, step up!
supporter: Well, it is the American chickenhawk way to be so pro-war, especially when you or your own are not fighting it, so I dont think I will be joining anytime soon.
What a country, where a person can act like such a hardass and say ridiculous things, but deep down not stand up for what they believe in. You can see these guys all day, every day, on Fox News. O'Reilly, Hannity, Gibson, can anyone describe the service these pussies have provided to their country? Or, our own president and vice president, and bitches like Wolfowitz and Perle!
Thanks Chickenhawk, I'm glad you don't take offense when I use the word "chickenhawk" in the context of the article. 8^)
Shea, my name is but a tribute to all those in our country who so bravely and patriotically advocate war, yet refuse to participate in it for all the wrong reasons.
So now people cannot advocate a point of view unless they can support it physically? I guess that means there is no man here who can advocate abortion, or even advocate against abortion. The notion is ridiculous. This fictional interaction is ridiculous.
I support the war. I am not fighting in the war. Wars are fought by armies. The U.S. Army is comprised of - get this - volunteers! Yup. Nobody held a gun to their head and said "git out thar an' fight, dangit!" Oh sure, go on about targeted recruiting and so forth, that can be a topic for another post.
But to say that someone cannot support a war, or more accurately, the reasons and ideas which unfortunately require armed combat to achieve, because they have not enlisted is just plain dumb. That's like me saying you can't support the troops because you aren't one, or don't have a family member that is one. It makes no sense.
Not to mention the fact that your completely lame "fictional exchange" uses some pretty stupid arguments.
No disrespect, but I am willing to bet a married father of two who is avoiding car bombs every day for our administration's bullshit war has some things he needs to worry about.
Right. Cuz of course foreign terrorists are our fault. Hello - earth to chickenhawk! These are terrorists - from foreign countries or Sodom supporters. Are you seriously going to sit there and say that the married father of two in Baghdad had nothing to worry about before this war? Of course not. Sodom was a benevolent and peaceful man who wanted nothing but the best for his citizens. When he was raping, torturing, or having them summarily executed, that is.
Cripes.
No Sean, I am talking about chickenhawks who would not go fight a war because they have got other priorities, like everyone in your beloved White House.
War is not a point of view. War is an act of politics. Abortion is an operation/procedure that kills a fetus. Abortion is not an ongoing thing like a war is, with no end in sight and unpredictability. War is a last resort where millions of innocent people die. I refer to people who talk all hardass about it, and my point is, for those people, they should not act like a hardass and try to demean those against the war, unless they do something about it. I dont even know you, but given your angry response, you must be a chickenhawk yourself. This was and is an illegal war and worthless because it has accomplished zero, nothing. Do not give me that democracy bullshit either. You do not impose a system on a people because of one asshole brutal dictator and have millions killed to achieve that. And yes, I am saying if you support this war, the imposition of a cultural change on people who did nothing to us, then yes, go fight it yourself. That exchange is bullshit? With few minor alterations, this was an exchange between a family friend whose son is in Iraq and a friend of my brother's who came over spewing the typical chickenhawk neo-conservative bullshit. So that refutes what you say about my exchange being ridiculous (although I did probably mislead by calling it a fictional exchange, sorry). I am not saying you have done that before, I do not even know you (would not surprise me though, you seem to support fascist foreign policy). But people like that exist. Anyone I know who has been there says they would go back if called to do so, because of their brothers and sisters they were there with before. But none of them have said anything about going back because they are accomplishing anything and the number of negative things they have experienced far outweigh anything positive.
"I support the war. I am not fighting in the war. Wars are fought by armies. The U.S. Army is comprised of - get this - volunteers! Yup. Nobody held a gun to their head and said "git out thar an' fight, dangit!""
What is your fucking point Seano?
People volunteer to go into the Army, for a number of reasons. That does not necessarily mean they are volunteering for a war. This administration FORCED those who were VOLUNTEERING to go fight. If you are not in the military, then you will not be forced. But you can still volunteer. You support it, isn't our national security at stake? Isn't that why we are over there? Why aren't you?
Finally, with a war going on, there is a lot more you can do to support it, then there is if you are against it. And you support the war, but do not fight in it. What do you (yes, you, Sean) do to support it then?
And dont ever make any comparison between war and abortion ever again.
And seriously, calling Saddam Sodom is just as stupid too.
This was and is an illegal war and worthless because it has accomplished zero, nothing.
It was not an illegal war. There was a ceasefire of the first Gulf War. That ceasefire carried certain conditions. Sodom failed to meet those conditons - one of which was to prove he had disarmed. He did not do that. This action was legal and justified.
Do not give me that democracy bullshit either. You do not impose a system on a people because of one asshole brutal dictator and have millions killed to achieve that.
Bullshit? Nice to see what you think of democracy. It seems like you feel there is no reason to depose dictators. I suppose you look back with fondness at people like Stalin. Millions killed? Yes, by Sodom. Not by us. Reality check.
would not surprise me though, you seem to support fascist foreign policy
Hey, your the one who seems to see no reason whatsoever to depose brutal dictators. I'm the one who is in favor of deposing Sodom. Guess that makes you the supporter of fascist foreign governments.
What is your fucking point Seano?
That you do not have to join the military to support military action taken by our government. Cripes, I would think that would be obvious.
That does not necessarily mean they are volunteering for a war.
You know, when I was interviewing with the Air Force Colonel he made it clear what the military's job is: "To break things and kill people." You might not sign up expecting to go to war, but you're given a gun and taught how to kill people, that's a big clue right there.
This administration FORCED those who were VOLUNTEERING to go fight.
Duh, they're in the military. They were told to do their job. Thank God we have so many dedicated men and women to do that job, because it is incredibly difficult and incredibly important.
What do you (yes, you, Sean) do to support it then?
I support the President, I donate money and goods to charities that support the troops, and I try to correct people who claim they "support the troops" all the while saying they are dying for no reason and that their mission is shit.
And dont ever make any comparison between war and abortion ever again.
Right. Bad comparison. Soldiers knowingly volunteer to join the military where they might fight and die. Children get no say over whether their "mommies" murder them. If you can't see the analogy between supporting an idea and cause without having participated in it, well, I don't know what to tell you.
And seriously, calling Saddam Sodom is just as stupid too.
Not as stupid as calling yourself "chickenhawk". Oh, I get it, it's a protest. How clever.
"one of which was to prove he had disarmed. He did not do that. This action was legal and justified."
-Why didnt we find the weapons we said he definitely had? Or the relationship with al Qaeda that they repeated over and over after it was discredited? If this was so justified, why did they keep wheeling out all sorts of bullshit like the al Qaeda relationship and uranium fron Niger? If this was such a slam dunk, why did they fabricate other reasons for the invasion?
"Bullshit? Nice to see what you think of democracy. It seems like you feel there is no reason to depose dictators. I suppose you look back with fondness at people like Stalin. Millions killed? Yes, by Sodom. Not by us. Reality check."
-Definitely not what I think of Democracy, sorry. Its what I think of how well our system is working over there. The need to depose brutal dictators? What about Kim Jong Il, who we know has weapons? How about Alexander Lukashenko from Belarus? Or Omar al-Bashir from Sudan, we KNOW he harbored Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda? Get it? There are some more too.
Millions killed? Yes, by Sodom. Not by us. Reality check.
-Not by us either? That is completely false.
You are against abortion, that is fine, but not the killing of millions, for a reason you cannot define. And you are a Christian? What is Christian about that, please tell me. And you did not explain why you are not if you are supporting it. All you have said is that you do not have to participate in a cause to support it. But answer the question. If it such a serious national security issue, why are you not there? Your freedom is at stake Sean. By a man who has been sanctioned and had no way of harming us at all. Was Saddam a threat, or Iraq? One man or that whole country?
"Not as stupid as calling yourself "chickenhawk". Oh, I get it, it's a protest. How clever."
-Sean, your profile says you are 34, grow up. Might be cool in the O.C, brah, but not outside of it. No, definitely not.
"I donate money and goods to charities that support the troops."
I know we have not disagreed so much, but that is a kind act.
Why didnt we find the weapons we said he definitely had? Or the relationship with al Qaeda that they repeated over and over after it was discredited? If this was so justified, why did they keep wheeling out all sorts of bullshit like the al Qaeda relationship and uranium fron Niger? If this was such a slam dunk, why did they fabricate other reasons for the invasion?
Holy crap, you just won't take your head out of the sand, will you. The al Queda link has been shown to exist several times. Just recently the Iraqi Intelligence Service found documents showing one of OBL's lieutenants was brought to Baghdad for a meet and greet.
You might not accept the fact that our intelligence was bad on the WMD's, but its a fact. Does that suck? Yes. But it does not change the FACT that Sodom was supposed to prove that he had disarmed. Instead he played games, giving us documents that did not account for thousands of pounds of WMD materials. Absent that verifiable proof of disarmament from Sodom there was no choice but to go in and make sure he was disarmed. Sodom had 12 years to play hide the WMD's with our inspecters - this time it was prudent to go in with troops.
The Niger uranium story was not bullshit. Joe Wilson is bullshit and has been unveiled as a liar. I hope you're not so narrow-sighted that you actually give any credence to that idiot.
Reasons were not fabricated, and if you would do some independent research, rather than reading DailyKos for your "news", perhaps you would understand that.
The need to depose brutal dictators? What about Kim Jong Il, who we know has weapons? How about Alexander Lukashenko from Belarus? Or Omar al-Bashir from Sudan, we KNOW he harbored Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda? Get it? There are some more too.
This "argument" is so devoid of any foundation it's laughable. "There are other bad men out there, so if we don't go after them all we should have left this bad man alone." We'll get to these other bad guys soon enough. Will you bitch about it then or support the decision? My guess is you'll bitch about it, but I'd love to be proven wrong on that point.
Not by us either? That is completely false.
Really? What super-secret source of information do you have showing we killed millions in Iraq? Even Lefty sources estimate in the tens of thousands.
You are against abortion, that is fine, but not the killing of millions, for a reason you cannot define. And you are a Christian? What is Christian about that, please tell me.
I am against the killing of millions - of innocents. We have not killed millions. Every innocent Iraqi life lost is tragic. Is that a reason for leaving Sodom in power? No. What's Christian about leaving a brutal dictator in power to continue to rape and murder more innocents? "Turn the other cheek" does not require you to allow evil men to do evil deeds. A Christian will stand between an evil person and an innocent.
You're back to your childish argument again. "Why aren't you there?" You are trying to argue that a cause is not worthy just because I have not physically joined the struggle. I cannot support the war if I do not fight in the war? Oh please. Of course I can support it without fighting in it. What do you say to the 80 year old woman who supports the war? Do you tell her to go fight it? Why not? According to you nobody can support anything unless they take an active, physical part in it. Not that its any of your damn business, I was medically disqualified from joining the military. I tried, I was rejected. It was upsetting because the reason was silly, but I'm not going to go into that. That's why I'm not over there fighting. Does that make my support less valid? Does that mean I cannot agree with the reasons for this fight? No, definitely not.
Sean, your profile says you are 34, grow up. Might be cool in the O.C, brah, but not outside of it. No, definitely not.
Fortunately I have grown up, and because of that I understand the need for distasteful actions like the Iraq War. Yes, war sucks, but unfortunately there are times when it is necessary. Someday, you'll realize that life sometimes gives you a bad situation which forces you to choose between "bad", "worse", and "worst". Ignoring that choice won't make it go away, remember that.
I wont take my head out of the sand? Shown to exist many times? Where? My argument is laughable? Dont tell me my argument is laughable when you have no fucking argument. I dont even care about Joe Wilson- he wasnt "bullshit" until this leak story came out and its been a feeble way of trying to shoot this down.
What is laughable and lacking foundation when Sudan was absolutely known to support and sponsor al Qaeda, KNOWN? Iraq was not. What is laughable about that argument? Again, what about the other dictators; how the fucking hell is that argument devoid of any foundation? We invaded a nation because of so called weapons we did not find- we know Kim has them and a horrible human rights record. We talk about this "relationship" between Iraq and al Qaeda and we know Iraq never has had any responsibility for any attacks on us before we invaded, we know Sudan supported al Qaeda and they have a horrible human rights record. How is that devoid of any fucking foundation? Are you trying to tell me what has happened in Sudan or North Korea before the war was not worse than Iraq, especially, again, when we know that Sudan's president harbored and sponsored al Qaeda? (oh, and Condi just met with him recently too, isnt that nice?) Kim Jong Il, we know he has weapons, we know his human rights record, whats going on here? Its a perfectly logical question and there is plenty of foundation to it.
And in regards to my childish argument? War is the last resort here, and this is supposedly a national security crisis. Your reason sounds awfully Rush Limbaugh to me.
"A Christian will stand between an evil person and an innocent."
Then go stand between the evil person and the innocent.
The need for distasteful actions like Iraq? There was no need for it. We are not winning this war, and it does not look like we will. I hate to be a pessimist, but with innocents on both sides dying every day, what is the point now, other than acting out the Bush family vendetta?
We can stop arguing about the war, this post is old, we will never agree on this and we will go back and forth endlessly about this, but you cannot justify this action, to me at least. We lose sight of what a great country we really do have and the endless opportunity, and without pointing any blame towards one side or the other, it is tragic and unfortunate how divided we have become. I trust we can agree on that.
In the words of Wild Bill O'Reilly, Ill give you the last word. And then we can move on with life.
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